Learn more about A(H1N1) and the vaccine
Oct. 27th, 2009 06:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
c9The Toronto Star recently published a map showing where the city would be hosting A(H1N1) vaccine clinics for the public. I sent this to all the Toronto employees at my company as an FYI. I got a response from a colleague (who I don't know very well at all) and we engaged in some back and forth debate on the vaccine and vaccines in general. I recommend reading from the bottom, so you get the full conversation. If you're interested in other links or have found other resources, please feel free to post.
Update: fixed broken links (even the ones I think are garbage), and name is changed to protect the other party.
(His final reply)
Cam, I am impressed in the way you research information given to you.
Please give me some links, when you have some time, on the efficacy of vaccines that you have read and I will be sure to read them. The only problem I had in the past with medical trials and research was that the company in question marketing the product was usually funding the research leading to potentially biased results
BTW, I am not trying to change your mind or debate you.....I just wanted to hear what the "other side" of the debate is saying :-)
----------------
Hi Mark
Thanks for the links. I prefer reading actual scientific studies than limited half-sentences from doctors and lobbyists though – it’s hard to put a lot of weight in these clips.
Your first clip features:
1. Barbara Loe Fisher: no medical training whatsoever. Has troubled kids and I feel terrible for her and their challenges, but also has been known to spread incorrect information linking the DPT vaccine and SIDS, despite ten years of clinical studies showing no such link.
2. Dr Rene Toko (misspelled): chiropractor who works with autistic kids. The vaccine – autism link has been strongly disproven in multiple studies, and she’s not medically schooled in either area anyway.
3. Dr Warren Levin: I love that he’s pushed the cosmetics industry and governments on toxicity, that’s great. However, a common concern that he alludes to is toxic chemicals used in vaccines, but the toxins that are complained about most often aren’t used any more – not since 2001 for example, for thimerosal. It was used since the 1930s, but only in multiple-dose devices, never for single-use like we see at flu clinics. But that kinda gets ignored in this I find.
4. Stephen Marini, PhD: Chiropractor, not medical doctor. His clip is edited so I don’t know what he actually said in the original, but this clip makes it seem like he thinks vaccines can lead to allergies (DPT has this as a rare side-effect, 0.0007% of the time, and even moderate side effects only appear 0.1-1.0% of the time), asthma, and autism. I have not yet read one single peer-reviewed study which supports a claim of asthma or autism. He also appears to say that DPT and MMR are diseases we “now know how to handle”. While this may be true, we vaccinate (and have for generations) because of how many kids they KILLED.
a. Diphtheria: 13000+ kids killed in US per year before the vaccine, and only 3 cases total (no deaths) between 2000 and 2007.
b. Pertussis: still kills up to a dozen kids per year in the US even despite vaccinations, and killed many more before.
c. Tetanus: still kills about five every year in the US, almost always due to lack of vaccination.
d. Measles: killed 345,000 worldwide in 2005, but only 101 cases total in Canada in 2007.
e. Rubella: In 1964-65, 11,000 miscarriages or therapeutic abortions and 20,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome. Of these, 2,100 died as neonates, 12,000 were deaf, 3,580 were blind and 1,800 were mentally retarded. (all USA). It was announced “eliminated in the USA” by the CDC in 2004.
(All of these numbers are on Wikipedia and are referenced)
5. Mary Toko (misspelled): no medical training, sells a DVD about her beliefs, and disseminates information clearly against the scientific consensus (like vaccines cause autism).
OK, that’s an hour of research, and I’ve only covered one minute of the first video. I’m exhausted from my class today, so I’m going to sign off on this debate. Thanks for the links – I do appreciate them. I do also hope that you research the publicly funded independent science too.
Lastly: bringing up Nazis is really not a good way to win an argument. It’s like sandblasting a soda cracker! I agree Nazis were bad, but I strongly disagree that there is a relevant comparison between doctors who believe vaccines are good and the Nazis.
Probably safest to agree to disagree.
Cam
From: Mark
Sent: October 26, 2009 20:12
To: Cameron
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hi Cam,
Don't forget how Nazi Germany's propaganda machine mesmerized Germany into think it was the best nation on the planet. History has always repeats itself. The propaganda minister Goebbels always maintained that the bigger the lie/coverup, the easier it was to produce since most cannot begin to comprehend coverups on an enormous scale. Anyhow, following the money is a good direction, but power is another direction when you already have more money that you need.
We'll.. I'm going to go out on a limb......but here's a few more links to check;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcHdmnTbH9Q&feature=player_embedded
...and here I'm pushing my luck but it really is good and gets progressively better -- try and watch it to the end :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8LPNRI_6T8&feature=player_embedded
Let me know your thoughts...
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Cameron
Sent: Thu 10/22/2009 11:16 AM
To: Mark
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hey Mark
I'm definitely NOT 100% sure of the things I read. Hence I read lots of things, and try to digest lots of contrary sources and opinions. But what I've seen has a lot of science and experience on one side, and some limited/contradictory/false information on the other. The weight and the science is clearly (to me) on the efficacy of vaccines. I believe the effects have been studied over and over by many individuals, corporations, governments, and research teams, all of whom have different incentives and different goals - why would they all participate in a massive coverup of facts? But regardless it's still worth digesting both sides of course.
It's unfortunate that your Doctor hasn't had the time to absorb the information he's been sent. Good thing you're well-informed!
My general approach is to follow the money: government isn't making money off telling us to take the vaccine, they're actually losing money. Big Pharma isn't making money, because sickness can causes much more trouble and require more drugs and care. Doctors and nurses and hospitals aren't making money. On the other hand, several of the most popular vaccine deniers (whether it's HPV, MMR, or others) coincidentally sell other things, like books or home remedies. So they directly make money off the debate. That doesn't automatically mean they're wrong, but it says something.
Staying healthy and being better informed is better than most, so that's a good thing no matter what! J
Cam
From: Mark
Sent: October 22, 2009 10:56
To: Cameron
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hey Cam, thanks for the reply.
I just sent you some recent links since the topic is so prevalent these days but I have indeed read much more data written by much more qualified people on the topic and there are still many questions that dispute the integrity of all those years of data and tests that have been recorded. How are you so sure that the data you have read has been 100 % accurate -- governments/corporations do lie and hide facts....this has been proven time and time again. We generally do seem to be getting sicker, albeit living longer with the aid of unnatural drug therapies.
My doctor recommended that I take the H1N1 shot. He was just repeating to me what he was told to repeat (recommendations) by the medical authorities above him....he showed me a stack of papers with information that was given to him to digest, which he doesn't have the time to read. I told him no ....I'll stick to Vitamin D and healthy foods to keep my immune system strong enough to battle any flu.
We just opened up a can of worms......we should chat about it one of these days :-)
Mark
________________________________
From: Cameron
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:16 AM
To: Mark
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
I agree, there are lots of questions floating around. It's tough though, because there's a lot of misinformation and confusion coming from people who don't know the science, much like what we see with 9/11 truthers, moon landing deniers, and climate change deniers. I don't believe that everyone passing along this information is malicious, but I do believe that a lot of it is misinformed. And sites like facebook and twitter encourage short, peppy, reference-free information, so it's easy for urban legends to gain lots of traction. The internet gives everybody a loud bullhorn, even if their information has already been disproven elsewhere - a common problem in IT too!
As an example, here's a takedown of Mercola's approach, point by point with references: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2116 , and
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=851
When it comes to vaccines in general, they have done some amazing things, and yet some groups deny 60+ years of science in this area and end up leading to children dying due to resurgence of long-controlled diseases. One of the big problems is that anti-vaccine gets confused with confusion over a single specific vaccine, and parents stop vaccinating their kids for things we already have dealt with and we know are safe because they're worried over fabricated autism fears for example. Then the kids' herd immunity is destroyed, and the 3-5% of people who can't get vaccinated end up at higher risk.
As for the A(H1N1) vaccine:
- Many articles make the claim that it's a money issue. I dispute this, because doctors, nurses, hospitals, and drug companies all stand to make MORE money worldwide if the flu actually goes crazy. Vaccinating gives them less to do.
- Some articles talk about increased risk of other syndromes due to vaccination, like GBS. Learn more here about why that's not an issue: http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=784 Or here, with worry over the HPV vaccine for teenage girls: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/08/20/mainstream-scaremongering-over-gardasil/ . For this one, the risks are similar to the risk of dying by falling off your chair!
- A piece of info that seems to get lost in these discussions is that we've been using almost the same flu vaccines for decades, and the A(H1N1) vaccine is no different:
o "The flu vaccine uses the same basic technology that has been used for decades, and therefore it is very reliable and the risks are fairly well known. Each year the vaccine has to be tweaked to target the likely strains of Influenza A that will be prominent that year." - http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=784
- Many myths are traveling around regarding the vaccine: http://www.theage.com.au/national/swine-flu-vaccine-myths-busted-by-experts-20091001-ge30.html
- Many people suggest that A(H1N1) is quite mild, and we don't need to worry. While this summer, in North America, many instances were fairly mild, it is in fact affecting the young and healthy far more than most regular flus, and the mortality rate is already significantly higher than previous years (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2009-2010/IPD40.htm ).
- A lot of the news articles I've seen that talk about public dissent or worry don't talk about professionals worrying, only the lay public. This tells me that the anti-vaccination movement's websites and news releases have made some people hesitant, but it doesn't tell me anything about the facts of the situation. While it's possible to make mistakes in any industry or job, I would trust medical science after decades of experience and research and testing more than the misinformation and lies I've found on many websites out there.
Finally, what it comes down to for me is that we have hundreds of people in our offices every day, and we all use TTC and GO with hundreds of other people around us every day. We are at high risk for contracting colds and flus due to density, and even if it's mild we can still pass it on to others and get them sick. Nearly 40,000 people in North America die each year in whole or in part due to the flu. Since mortality for A(H1N1) is already at a higher rate, this does not bode well. I want to avoid getting sick by using a vaccine that has had all its component parts tested (longer here than in other countries), has been effective (60-80% effective at minimum in previous years), and will help me avoid spreading it to my students and their families.
Nexient/GK is a hub for infectious disease, just like public places and schools always are. So since medical doctors tell me this one is more serious, I'm treating it more seriously. Some websites I saw written by non-medical professionals, and hosting articles warning me against Obama's communism (for example), don't really have much credibility for me. :-)
I don't suggest that anyone should listen to me though. I suggest people talk to their doctor about it. Just like my opinion on how to fix your car's radiator is not terribly relevant, someone with training and experience in this area would be a better resource, just like you and I are better resources for IT-related questions than someone on the sales team.
Thanks for the links - some interesting sites I hadn't seen before. I really enjoy that it's so easy to find conflicting information online - it suggests to me that it will be easier in future for us to find better solutions to problems in all areas, whereas 50 years ago we had to only deal with official communications channels. This way, the WHO and CDC can be fact-checked by others and be forced to explain themselves more, as they have already done quite a bit this year.
Cam
From: Mark
Sent: October 22, 2009 08:46
To: Cameron
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hi Cam,
It's funny you sent this e-mail because I've been reading about this issue as of late. It seems that there is some worldwide dissent in regards to this issue of the "swine flu" as well as many unanswered questions about it's validity and the safety of the vaccine. Here are some links just from the last few days from relatively non-mainstream media.
Let me know what you think.
http://preventdisease.com/news/09/102109_Canada_approved_unlicensed_vaccines.shtml
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/21/Special-Swine-Flu-Update.aspx
http://www.naturalnews.com/027294_swine_flu_vaccines_H1N1.html
http://www.theflucase.com/
http://www.independent.ie/health/swine-flu/top-insurer-tells-1000-gps-not-to-give-swine-flu-vaccine-1912502.html
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15758
http://www.prisonplanet.com/europeans-reject-swine-flu-vaccine.html
Mark
________________________________
From: Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 4:41 PM
To: Bloor - Employees;
Subject: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hi everyone - for those who live within Toronto and/or if you're planning to visit a flu clinic here in the city, the locations have been announced, and are mapped here: http://thestar.blogs.com/maps/2009/10/toronto-flu-clinics.html
If you're interested, this site (maintained by a classmate of mine from university) has lots of informative links regarding the flu, the results, and more: http://gilchrist.ca/jeff/H1N1/
Cam
Update: fixed broken links (even the ones I think are garbage), and name is changed to protect the other party.
(His final reply)
Cam, I am impressed in the way you research information given to you.
Please give me some links, when you have some time, on the efficacy of vaccines that you have read and I will be sure to read them. The only problem I had in the past with medical trials and research was that the company in question marketing the product was usually funding the research leading to potentially biased results
BTW, I am not trying to change your mind or debate you.....I just wanted to hear what the "other side" of the debate is saying :-)
----------------
Hi Mark
Thanks for the links. I prefer reading actual scientific studies than limited half-sentences from doctors and lobbyists though – it’s hard to put a lot of weight in these clips.
Your first clip features:
1. Barbara Loe Fisher: no medical training whatsoever. Has troubled kids and I feel terrible for her and their challenges, but also has been known to spread incorrect information linking the DPT vaccine and SIDS, despite ten years of clinical studies showing no such link.
2. Dr Rene Toko (misspelled): chiropractor who works with autistic kids. The vaccine – autism link has been strongly disproven in multiple studies, and she’s not medically schooled in either area anyway.
3. Dr Warren Levin: I love that he’s pushed the cosmetics industry and governments on toxicity, that’s great. However, a common concern that he alludes to is toxic chemicals used in vaccines, but the toxins that are complained about most often aren’t used any more – not since 2001 for example, for thimerosal. It was used since the 1930s, but only in multiple-dose devices, never for single-use like we see at flu clinics. But that kinda gets ignored in this I find.
4. Stephen Marini, PhD: Chiropractor, not medical doctor. His clip is edited so I don’t know what he actually said in the original, but this clip makes it seem like he thinks vaccines can lead to allergies (DPT has this as a rare side-effect, 0.0007% of the time, and even moderate side effects only appear 0.1-1.0% of the time), asthma, and autism. I have not yet read one single peer-reviewed study which supports a claim of asthma or autism. He also appears to say that DPT and MMR are diseases we “now know how to handle”. While this may be true, we vaccinate (and have for generations) because of how many kids they KILLED.
a. Diphtheria: 13000+ kids killed in US per year before the vaccine, and only 3 cases total (no deaths) between 2000 and 2007.
b. Pertussis: still kills up to a dozen kids per year in the US even despite vaccinations, and killed many more before.
c. Tetanus: still kills about five every year in the US, almost always due to lack of vaccination.
d. Measles: killed 345,000 worldwide in 2005, but only 101 cases total in Canada in 2007.
e. Rubella: In 1964-65, 11,000 miscarriages or therapeutic abortions and 20,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome. Of these, 2,100 died as neonates, 12,000 were deaf, 3,580 were blind and 1,800 were mentally retarded. (all USA). It was announced “eliminated in the USA” by the CDC in 2004.
(All of these numbers are on Wikipedia and are referenced)
5. Mary Toko (misspelled): no medical training, sells a DVD about her beliefs, and disseminates information clearly against the scientific consensus (like vaccines cause autism).
OK, that’s an hour of research, and I’ve only covered one minute of the first video. I’m exhausted from my class today, so I’m going to sign off on this debate. Thanks for the links – I do appreciate them. I do also hope that you research the publicly funded independent science too.
Lastly: bringing up Nazis is really not a good way to win an argument. It’s like sandblasting a soda cracker! I agree Nazis were bad, but I strongly disagree that there is a relevant comparison between doctors who believe vaccines are good and the Nazis.
Probably safest to agree to disagree.
Cam
From: Mark
Sent: October 26, 2009 20:12
To: Cameron
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hi Cam,
Don't forget how Nazi Germany's propaganda machine mesmerized Germany into think it was the best nation on the planet. History has always repeats itself. The propaganda minister Goebbels always maintained that the bigger the lie/coverup, the easier it was to produce since most cannot begin to comprehend coverups on an enormous scale. Anyhow, following the money is a good direction, but power is another direction when you already have more money that you need.
We'll.. I'm going to go out on a limb......but here's a few more links to check;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcHdmnTbH9Q&feature=player_embedded
...and here I'm pushing my luck but it really is good and gets progressively better -- try and watch it to the end :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8LPNRI_6T8&feature=player_embedded
Let me know your thoughts...
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Cameron
Sent: Thu 10/22/2009 11:16 AM
To: Mark
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hey Mark
I'm definitely NOT 100% sure of the things I read. Hence I read lots of things, and try to digest lots of contrary sources and opinions. But what I've seen has a lot of science and experience on one side, and some limited/contradictory/false information on the other. The weight and the science is clearly (to me) on the efficacy of vaccines. I believe the effects have been studied over and over by many individuals, corporations, governments, and research teams, all of whom have different incentives and different goals - why would they all participate in a massive coverup of facts? But regardless it's still worth digesting both sides of course.
It's unfortunate that your Doctor hasn't had the time to absorb the information he's been sent. Good thing you're well-informed!
My general approach is to follow the money: government isn't making money off telling us to take the vaccine, they're actually losing money. Big Pharma isn't making money, because sickness can causes much more trouble and require more drugs and care. Doctors and nurses and hospitals aren't making money. On the other hand, several of the most popular vaccine deniers (whether it's HPV, MMR, or others) coincidentally sell other things, like books or home remedies. So they directly make money off the debate. That doesn't automatically mean they're wrong, but it says something.
Staying healthy and being better informed is better than most, so that's a good thing no matter what! J
Cam
From: Mark
Sent: October 22, 2009 10:56
To: Cameron
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hey Cam, thanks for the reply.
I just sent you some recent links since the topic is so prevalent these days but I have indeed read much more data written by much more qualified people on the topic and there are still many questions that dispute the integrity of all those years of data and tests that have been recorded. How are you so sure that the data you have read has been 100 % accurate -- governments/corporations do lie and hide facts....this has been proven time and time again. We generally do seem to be getting sicker, albeit living longer with the aid of unnatural drug therapies.
My doctor recommended that I take the H1N1 shot. He was just repeating to me what he was told to repeat (recommendations) by the medical authorities above him....he showed me a stack of papers with information that was given to him to digest, which he doesn't have the time to read. I told him no ....I'll stick to Vitamin D and healthy foods to keep my immune system strong enough to battle any flu.
We just opened up a can of worms......we should chat about it one of these days :-)
Mark
________________________________
From: Cameron
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:16 AM
To: Mark
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
I agree, there are lots of questions floating around. It's tough though, because there's a lot of misinformation and confusion coming from people who don't know the science, much like what we see with 9/11 truthers, moon landing deniers, and climate change deniers. I don't believe that everyone passing along this information is malicious, but I do believe that a lot of it is misinformed. And sites like facebook and twitter encourage short, peppy, reference-free information, so it's easy for urban legends to gain lots of traction. The internet gives everybody a loud bullhorn, even if their information has already been disproven elsewhere - a common problem in IT too!
As an example, here's a takedown of Mercola's approach, point by point with references: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2116 , and
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=851
When it comes to vaccines in general, they have done some amazing things, and yet some groups deny 60+ years of science in this area and end up leading to children dying due to resurgence of long-controlled diseases. One of the big problems is that anti-vaccine gets confused with confusion over a single specific vaccine, and parents stop vaccinating their kids for things we already have dealt with and we know are safe because they're worried over fabricated autism fears for example. Then the kids' herd immunity is destroyed, and the 3-5% of people who can't get vaccinated end up at higher risk.
As for the A(H1N1) vaccine:
- Many articles make the claim that it's a money issue. I dispute this, because doctors, nurses, hospitals, and drug companies all stand to make MORE money worldwide if the flu actually goes crazy. Vaccinating gives them less to do.
- Some articles talk about increased risk of other syndromes due to vaccination, like GBS. Learn more here about why that's not an issue: http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=784 Or here, with worry over the HPV vaccine for teenage girls: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/08/20/mainstream-scaremongering-over-gardasil/ . For this one, the risks are similar to the risk of dying by falling off your chair!
- A piece of info that seems to get lost in these discussions is that we've been using almost the same flu vaccines for decades, and the A(H1N1) vaccine is no different:
o "The flu vaccine uses the same basic technology that has been used for decades, and therefore it is very reliable and the risks are fairly well known. Each year the vaccine has to be tweaked to target the likely strains of Influenza A that will be prominent that year." - http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=784
- Many myths are traveling around regarding the vaccine: http://www.theage.com.au/national/swine-flu-vaccine-myths-busted-by-experts-20091001-ge30.html
- Many people suggest that A(H1N1) is quite mild, and we don't need to worry. While this summer, in North America, many instances were fairly mild, it is in fact affecting the young and healthy far more than most regular flus, and the mortality rate is already significantly higher than previous years (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2009-2010/IPD40.htm ).
- A lot of the news articles I've seen that talk about public dissent or worry don't talk about professionals worrying, only the lay public. This tells me that the anti-vaccination movement's websites and news releases have made some people hesitant, but it doesn't tell me anything about the facts of the situation. While it's possible to make mistakes in any industry or job, I would trust medical science after decades of experience and research and testing more than the misinformation and lies I've found on many websites out there.
Finally, what it comes down to for me is that we have hundreds of people in our offices every day, and we all use TTC and GO with hundreds of other people around us every day. We are at high risk for contracting colds and flus due to density, and even if it's mild we can still pass it on to others and get them sick. Nearly 40,000 people in North America die each year in whole or in part due to the flu. Since mortality for A(H1N1) is already at a higher rate, this does not bode well. I want to avoid getting sick by using a vaccine that has had all its component parts tested (longer here than in other countries), has been effective (60-80% effective at minimum in previous years), and will help me avoid spreading it to my students and their families.
Nexient/GK is a hub for infectious disease, just like public places and schools always are. So since medical doctors tell me this one is more serious, I'm treating it more seriously. Some websites I saw written by non-medical professionals, and hosting articles warning me against Obama's communism (for example), don't really have much credibility for me. :-)
I don't suggest that anyone should listen to me though. I suggest people talk to their doctor about it. Just like my opinion on how to fix your car's radiator is not terribly relevant, someone with training and experience in this area would be a better resource, just like you and I are better resources for IT-related questions than someone on the sales team.
Thanks for the links - some interesting sites I hadn't seen before. I really enjoy that it's so easy to find conflicting information online - it suggests to me that it will be easier in future for us to find better solutions to problems in all areas, whereas 50 years ago we had to only deal with official communications channels. This way, the WHO and CDC can be fact-checked by others and be forced to explain themselves more, as they have already done quite a bit this year.
Cam
From: Mark
Sent: October 22, 2009 08:46
To: Cameron
Subject: RE: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hi Cam,
It's funny you sent this e-mail because I've been reading about this issue as of late. It seems that there is some worldwide dissent in regards to this issue of the "swine flu" as well as many unanswered questions about it's validity and the safety of the vaccine. Here are some links just from the last few days from relatively non-mainstream media.
Let me know what you think.
http://preventdisease.com/news/09/102109_Canada_approved_unlicensed_vaccines.shtml
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/21/Special-Swine-Flu-Update.aspx
http://www.naturalnews.com/027294_swine_flu_vaccines_H1N1.html
http://www.theflucase.com/
http://www.independent.ie/health/swine-flu/top-insurer-tells-1000-gps-not-to-give-swine-flu-vaccine-1912502.html
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15758
http://www.prisonplanet.com/europeans-reject-swine-flu-vaccine.html
Mark
________________________________
From: Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 4:41 PM
To: Bloor - Employees;
Subject: H1N1 Flu Clinic Locations on a Map
Hi everyone - for those who live within Toronto and/or if you're planning to visit a flu clinic here in the city, the locations have been announced, and are mapped here: http://thestar.blogs.com/maps/2009/10/toronto-flu-clinics.html
If you're interested, this site (maintained by a classmate of mine from university) has lots of informative links regarding the flu, the results, and more: http://gilchrist.ca/jeff/H1N1/
Cam
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no subject
Date: 2009-10-28 03:40 pm (UTC)