Uneducated electorate

[c9]

You know what's unfortunate? The 31,990,000 Canadians (roughly) who won't bother to read the NDP's 2006 platform.

(it's also unfortunate that about 31,980,000 Canadians will also ignore the other parties' platforms.)

Comments

[simplisticton.livejournal.com]

A two-tier healthcare system would fail under its own contradictions: it creates a have/have not breakdown largely along class lines. It says, simultaneously, that we support healthcare for everyone and *better* healthcare for those who can afford it.

The first time there are two kids in the same hospital with the same problem and the rich one lives and the poor one dies, we've lost the moral underpinnings of our society.

[c9.livejournal.com]

While I generally agree, I'd recommend de-Godwining your argument. It would escalate too fast, and free healthcare would lose because it has no money.

[simplisticton.livejournal.com]

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm missing the reference. De-Godwining?

[c9.livejournal.com]

No worries. It was a bit of a leap. Godwin's Law = first mention of Nazis loses the argument.

Your argument uses the "little kids dying" card, which is similar. It's easier to win if you save the trump card for later when you really need its strength. Imagine you're in an election campaign, and it's you (universal single-payer single-tier healthcare) versus money. The campaign will last your entire lifetime, sadly. So pace yourself. :)

[simplisticton.livejournal.com]

Ah, OK, I would've got it had you mentioned Nazis, although I think Godwin's Law is that the first side to call the other side Nazis loses (or at least defaults :-). In the healthcare arguement, I don't think either side is evil per se, it's just that the two-tier people have a less cynical picture of human nature than I do.

Yeah, I could've stretched the argument out over a few posts, but I find lengthy debates in LiveJournal comments tiring. It's the out-of-order posts that throw me. I prefer to just drop a bomb and run :-)

[cap-hill-latte.livejournal.com]

Perhaps. But the way I see it, in the current Canadian system neither kid has much of a chance. But in a two tier system the money spent to pay for the first kid's treatment can be used to buy a [insert name of a piece of expensive medical equipment] that treats the second kid as well.

I know that the argument isn't nearly that simple, but it's also nowhere near as simple as saying "two tier = bad because only the rich get treatment".

I think you should come out to Seattle in February, this would make a great conversation around a dinner table. :-).

[c9.livejournal.com]

Why do you think neither kid has much of a chance? The Canadian health care system actually works, and for the most part very well. Yes, there are long waits for some things. Yes, there are hundreds of changes that could be made to improve the whole system. But it's *not* falling apart, despite what Republicans, Conservatives, and capitalists say. :)

[simplisticton.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't agree that the healthcare situation in Canada is as dire as you make it out to be, for one thing. But a two-tier healthcare system is less about healthcare than it is about the state-sactioned division of social classes in a society that is ideally supposed to be classless.

The rich are always the first to deny the existence of class warfare, while the poor can't do anything about it, and the (vanishing) middle-class finds itself increasingly marginalized.

Just like the case for equal marriage, "separate but equal" is neither.

[joecdn.livejournal.com]

I think I should reclarify my point here.

I don't think that it's about "better" healthcare...here in BC we have private surgical centres, that are staffed by surgeons that also work in hospitals. Basically, it's just an alternative surgical ward that was built with private dollars where doctors can get more surgical hours that aren't neccesarily available to them in a hospital, for whatever reason (lack of funding, etc).

For a lot of people, it doesn't make sense to have to wait for 8 months to get knee surgery. It's not a life-threatening issue, and if you are willing to pay for it to have it done faster, then you should be able to. It says a lot about the current state of our health care system when you have to wait that long, but people shouldn't be punished by living in agony for months at a time. I know the BC government transfers patients to these private surgical clinics when there are surgeons in hospitals unable to work because there's no operating room available to them - they pay the surgical fee, and they send the patient to the clinic to have the procedure done. I think that's a MUCH better option than having to wait for one of two OR's in a hospital, for example.

As far as I know, Layton and the NDP is trying to curb that sort of thing, which I definitely do NOT agree with. If the resources are there, and willing to be privately funded - then do it. At least it gives people another option.

[c9.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with patients having surgery anywhere as long as they don't need a credit card. If private hospitals can compete for government pay, that's OK in my mind. But the problem I see is when two hospitals can charge different prices, and have different levels of quality.

I think the NDP might be too dogmatic on health care, but the Tories and Liberals are simply lying when they talk about "protecting" it. Damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

[joecdn.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the problem however also has to do with people abusing the system. I know here in Vancouver, they're planning on building an emergency ward in the downtown eastside just to deal with all the "problems" that the vagrants seem to have. There's the mothers as well that'll take their kids to the hospital every time they have a little nosebleed. That pisses me off!!! People need to only go the hospital if they're having a procedure or if they have a medical EMERGENCY...such as if you've broken something, or need stiches, or are having chest pains or something. Don't go to the hospital for a cough, a runny nose or a small cut. Get some bandaids, some benadryl and some claritin, and deal with it at home. Even going to the doctor's office for those things is stupid.

Anyways, an aside to all this - my grandpa was having some "mini-strokes" a few years ago, and they weren't able to properly diagnose his condition up here. He kept having his episodes. He had to visit a specialist at the Mayo Clinic in Phoenix to be properly diagnosed, and treated. What does that say about our current system?? I don't think that people, and their families should have to go through such turmoil to get appropriate medical care in this country.

[c9.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that people should not have to go through long waits, or travel 2000km to get diagnosed.

But on the flipside, imagine your grandfather were going through that same situation, but there were a bunch of rich people paying to butt in front of him in line? I fear that might happen in smaller centres, where there's not enough business to build a whole extra hospital.

[p00kster.livejournal.com]

Perhaps the people are "abusing" the system because they don't have family doctors or don't have access to a primary health team? It's just a matter of reorganizing our resources a little. Ontario is currently in the process of creating these teams to cut down on more costly things like ER visits.

[simplisticton.livejournal.com]

The problem with sidestepping the system if you have the money is that it does nothing to help fix the existing system. It funnels money and expertise AWAY from the existing system and into the private system (cynically, I believe that even doctors will follow money if private healthcare pays better than public).

[joecdn.livejournal.com]

None of the clinics in BC are staffed entirely by doctors that don't also work in the hospitals. Basically the clinics supplement the hospitals, in the sense that the doctors in the private clinics are just OR docs that can't get surgical time in the hospital, due to a lack of space.

[simplisticton.livejournal.com]

That's now, with private clinics being held in check. If the checks are removed, you'll see some of those doctors preferring to work in clincs because they're better funded, better staffed, and better equipped. The money flowing to them is less money that could flow into the public system. The public system weakens, the private system grows, and eventually we're in the same situation as the Americans.

[p00kster.livejournal.com]

I'd speculate that the doctors in these private clinics are doctors who simply want to make more money. I have yet to meet a doctor who wants a private system for any other reason.